Ray, I shot up the bullets today and all I can say is WOW!  For the first try, I took my old T/C Renegade, primarily because it is by far the most familiar of my muzzleloaders... Over the years, I tried just about everything imaginable in it... Minnie's, Maxies, sabot this, sabot that, and the ONLY thing it has ever shot well is patched round balls... You could drive nails with them, but any of the sabot or cast bullets open up to around three inches with the occasional flyer.. So, using 80, 90, and 100 grains by volume of 777 FFg I started in my sighting in the scope which turned out to not need any adjustments... After that, and after I had my flinches and jerks out of the way, I got down to business.  On the first target, which I actually intended to be a practice target, I fired two rounds each of 80, 90, and 100 grains... It was a one hole group! Backing off to 100 yards, I turned in another three rounds again all holes touching the other... I'll have to scan the targets, but basically, I found no point of impact difference between 80 and 100 grains 777 FFg at 50 yards, and no change in accuracy at 100 yards using 100 grains... This is the very first "bullet" of any kind other than the patched round ball that I have found to shoot in this rifle... If this is any indication at all, the QT is one heck of a great bullet.... I'm totally impressed... I'm going to post this on the forums, and then get the article together for the magazine page... 

The thing you have to keep in mind is that I've had this muzzleloader ever since Indiana first made them legal... and over all those years, I've shot everything that came along trying to find something other than patched round balls that it would shoot... I had done that so much that I was not one bit optimistic about how the QT bullets would do, but the 180 grain weight did give me a glimmer of hope... Boy was I wrong... the combination of 777 FFg and the QT bullet, regardless of amount of powder is a real winner...

Dave QUOTE: "Lord, please help me to be just half the man my dog thinks I am"... 

D. Robert (Dave) Quick HANDLOADING FOR HUNTING Main Website: http://www.accs.net/users/drquick 
Discussion forums: 
http://drquick.proboards18.com/

Hi Ray- I finally got a chance to shoot more than paper this past weekend on the Pennsylvania early muzzleloading opener- does only season. I was very impressed with the QT and the job it did on an animal. Truly devastating at 100 yards. The penetration and the way the bullet exited the deer made tracking in yellow and bright red maple leaves (although pretty in the sun) easy because of the amount of blood. Pete

Sep 20, 2004  

Ray, I thought I would drop you an email to let you know how happy I am with your sabots!  I was shooting Powerbelt 275 grain bullets and wasn't happy at all!  They dropped like a rock after 150 yards.  I have a TC Encore 45 and the Powerbelts were dropping 9 inches from 150 to 200 yards!  I shots your sabots (.40 Caliber QT 250 grain) and could not believe it....At 100 yards I was 4 inches high and at 200 it was still 3 inches high.  I moved the target out to 250 yards and I was only 4 inches low! I could not believe it!  NO "flyers" either!  I am going on an Elk hunt in New Mexico in 2 weeks and an extra 100 yards or more range sure will help!  Thanks! 

Sid in Georgia

May 29, 2004. Today I decided to test the 180 grain QT .40 in my TC Hawkens sidelock. Since the Hawkens has a rather slow twist (1 in 48) and Cecil told me these were made for the slower twist rifles I thought it was time to wipe the dust of my Hawkens and see for myself. It has been several years since I shot any rifle with open sights, I was in for a little bit of a shock. I've aged some and all of sudden I realized my ability to focus with open sights is a bit blurred to say the least. It just so happened there was a fellow at the range shooting an old Browning .54 caliber sidelock. He was shooting round balls and some heavy-weight conicals that would stop an elephant. I had never met this guy before, but not being shy I ask him if he would like to shoot some lighter bullets and give his shoulder a break? His name turned out to be David List, and he said yes he would since he was intrigued by the QTs. I then told him I would be grateful if he would shoot a group with them to see how they shot loaded with 80 grains of 777 FFg powder in my Hawkens.

The first two were touching, but on the third shot, the gun had a delayed ignition leading to the hole on the left. The fourth, however, returned to the group. Here is a graphic of the target.  David was impressed to say the least, and said he wanted to try some of these in a sidelock he had at home. I gave him my web site address and thanked him for his help. I am extremely excited about what I discovered today. I suddenly realized that there are an awful lot of folks out there still using sidelocks, who might just want to try these flat shooting QTs in them. If my eyes could focus better, I would not be afraid to use these little rascals out to 175 yards or more in my sidelock with open sites.  

May 31, 2004. I couldn't wait any longer. I had to see what the .40 QT 180 grain muzzleloader bullet would do in my Hawkens sidelock at a longer range. I was not disappointed. I increased my load to 90 grains of 777 FFg to up the velocity a little. After sighting the Hawkens in a 2" high at 100 yards, with the help of reading glasses, which helped clear up my sight picture, but blurred the target a little, I moved back to 180 yards. Shooting off my spare tire and barely able to see the bulls eye at that range I expected the worst. Well, my shots, although not as tight as they might have been with a scope and bench rest showed very little drop; maybe 4 inches. Wow, point blank out to 200 yards with a Hawkins. I'm lost for words.

Just how does this bullet perform on deer?  Here is a graphic.

Some target graphics: group one, group two, group three and group by Toby Bridges.

As I'm sure most of you know by now, my muzzleloading rifle of choice these days is the Savage Model 10ML II. Not only does this rifle give me added velocity, knockdown power and slightly more range than any other .50 caliber in-line on the market thanks to the smokeless loads that can be shot through the muzzleloader, this rifle also allows me to use the same rifle to test loads with other "traditional" powders, such as Triple Seven and Pyrodex. There is a lot to be said for a test rifle of this versatility, making it easier to obtain a true read of a projectile's versatility at different velocities from around 1,600 f.p.s. to 2,300+ f.p.s. - out of the same bore. 

Recently, I have heard from a large number of HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING viewers who wanted to know more about the accuracy and performance of the extremely aerodynamic saboted swaged lead bullets produced by PRECISION RIFLE Custom Muzzleloader Bullets, of Anola, Manitoba, CANADA. While I do know a number of very successful and knowledgeable muzzleloading shooters and hunters who love these bullets, I personally have not had the opportunity to do much shooting with them.

Shooting two stainless steel Model 10ML II rifles, one with loads of FFFg Triple Seven and one with several different smokeless loads, it did not take me long to experience the inherent accuracy of the poly-tipped spire-pointed PR bullets. During this initial testing of the bullets, I primarily shot the 275-grain .45/.50 "QT" and the .45/.50 300-grain "Dead Center" bullets, plus did a very small amount of shooting with the company's unique duplex sabot design that allows a small .357" diameter bullet to be shot with a sabot, or rather two sabots, out of a .50 caliber fast-twist bore. One problem I ran into almost immediately with the smokeless loads was a very high rate of misfires due to the fact that the Precision Rifle saboted bullets loaded just a little too easily. Smokeless powders require adequate compression for positive ignition and an easy loading sabot and bullet does not quite provide that compression. However, this was remedied by simply running a sub-base, formed from the gas seal or obturator cup of a 28 gauge Winchester "AA" wad, down over the powder first, then seating the sabot and bullet directly on top of this. Ignition was 100-percent once the sub-base was added to the load. My first group with the 275-grain "QT" bullet, which is something of a belted bullet with a boat-tail, was shot with a moderate 42 grain charge of IMR-SR4759. My Shooting Chrony showed the load was good for 2,253 f.p.s. And those first three shots at 100 yards printed a very nice 1 1/2-inch cluster on the target paper. That was the best group I'd ever shot with the Savage using smokeless loads behind a soft lead bullet. But after that, it got better... The next three shots with the rifle were with 44 grains of VihtaVuori N110 behind the same bullet, again using the sub-base to insure ignition. Those three 275-grain PR "QT" bullets whizzed across the screens of the chronograph at an average speed of 2,325 f.p.s. And, they printed a tight .830" group on the hundred yard target. Precision Rifle gives a .274 b.c. for their 275-grain .44 (.429") "QT" bullet. Since the one I was shooting has a slightly larger .451" diameter, my guess is that the b.c. will be down around .250. With the 2,325 f.p.s. velocity, the energy produced at the muzzle is right at 3,300 foot-pounds. If the .250 b.c. proves out, it means this bullet will still be flying at around 1,700 f.p.s. out at 200 yards, and hit with a little over 1,750 f.p.e. In anyone's book that's a good whitetail load. Heck, it's a darn good elk load! The 300-grain "Dead Center" also shot well with the same smokeless load, but not quite as good as the lighter "QT" during this initital range session. Three groups were shot at 2,247 f.p.s. that were all right at 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches across. Again, the sub-base was used. This load is good for 3,360 f.p.e., and again it is one great elk load. This poly-tipped spire-point has a b.c. of .270, and at 200 yards this load will retain about 1,650 f.p.s. with right at 1,800 foot-pounds of knockdown power. Both of these bullets also performed great with hefty loads of FFFg Triple Seven. With a 110 grain charge, the 275-grain "QT" left the muzzle of the 24-inch barrel at just over 1,900 f.p.s. (2,211 f.p.e.). The two groups shot with the powder charge averaged around 1.3" center-to-center. The 300-grain "Dead Center" showed a slight accuracy edge with FFFg Triple Seven. A 110 grain charge gets the bullet out of the muzzle at 1,880 f.p.s. (Precision Rifle ballistics), for 2,354 f.p.e. One group shot with the load printed just under an inch across, the other was right at 1.3" center-to-center. I shot one 130-grain charge of FFFg Triple Seven behind each bullet, and both groups were inside of 1 1/2 inches. (The sub-base was used for this heavy load.) Velocity with the 275-grain "QT" was 2,086 f.p.s. (2,650 f.p.e.), the 300-grain "Dead Center" crossed the skyscreens at 2,012 f.p.s. (2,700 f.p.e.).

Precision Rifle makes and sells a tremendous range of saboted bullets. Easily the most "unique" of their line would be a sabot-inside-a-sabot "duplex" arrangement that allows the .50 caliber owner to shoot light .357" diameter bullets at hyper speed. The company offers the arrangement with a 175 or 195 grain bullet. I did get in a little shooting time with the 195-grain duplex sabot/bullet and was very pleased with my initial shooting with FFFg Triple Seven. A 130 grain charge got the long cylindrical poly-tipped spire-point out of the Savage muzzle at 2,327 f.p.s., for 2,340 f.p.e. This bullet has a b.c. of .375, meaning that at 200 yards it would retain a velocity of close to 1,900 f.p.s. and still hit with 1,560 f.p.e. Now, if I can get this extremely aerodynamic lightweight to shoot with smokeless out of the Savage Model 10ML II at around 2,500 f.p.s. with accuracy, there won't be a whitetail in the world that's safe at 250 yards! Watch for my follow up report early next month.  - Toby Bridges, HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADING

Thanks Toby for letting me use this information from your web site!

ray